Open Letter to Jeff Simmermon
Dear Jeff Simmermon,
So as you've seen, there's a little blog-thing going around today on BoingBoing and Metafilter about some sort of incident at the shop this past weekend.
(Original blog post here. Also blogged here and here.)
I suppose some sort of two-cents is warranted here.
Okay, we don't do espresso over ice. Why? Number one, because we don't do it. Number two, because we don't do it. Mostly for quality reasons. Also, because more than half the time, it's abused (Google "ghetto latte").
We have some policies at murky coffee. No sleeping in the shop. If you're asleep, you'll be tapped on the shoulder and asked not to sleep in the shop. We've had to ban a customer because of his chronic napping.
No modifications to the Classic Cappuccino. No questions will be answered about the $5 Hot Chocolate (during the months we offer it). No espresso in a to-go cup. No espresso over ice. These are our policies. We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them.
To others reading this I will say that if you don't like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want, or select something that we can offer you. David, the barista in question, is respectful, passionate, and cares about making good coffee, and he cares about murky's policies. Nobody's perfect, and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tack in responding to Jeff Simmermon's request. But that's life. At murky, we try to treat people with common courtesy, and expect the same from our customers. Not in response or in turn, but because that's how people are supposed to treat each other. We're not supposed to go through life looking for reasons to get pissed off. Life's too short for that sort of thing.
To Mr. Simmermon, you overplayed your hand with your vulgar tip-schtick. While I certainly won't bemoan you your right to free-speech, I have to respond to you in your own dialect: F*@k you, Jeff Simmermon. Considering your public threat of arson, you'll understand when I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick.
Respectfully,
Nick
Owner, murky coffee
[UPDATE July 16, 2008: A follow-up here]
So as you've seen, there's a little blog-thing going around today on BoingBoing and Metafilter about some sort of incident at the shop this past weekend.
(Original blog post here. Also blogged here and here.)
I suppose some sort of two-cents is warranted here.
Okay, we don't do espresso over ice. Why? Number one, because we don't do it. Number two, because we don't do it. Mostly for quality reasons. Also, because more than half the time, it's abused (Google "ghetto latte").
We have some policies at murky coffee. No sleeping in the shop. If you're asleep, you'll be tapped on the shoulder and asked not to sleep in the shop. We've had to ban a customer because of his chronic napping.
No modifications to the Classic Cappuccino. No questions will be answered about the $5 Hot Chocolate (during the months we offer it). No espresso in a to-go cup. No espresso over ice. These are our policies. We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them.
To others reading this I will say that if you don't like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want, or select something that we can offer you. David, the barista in question, is respectful, passionate, and cares about making good coffee, and he cares about murky's policies. Nobody's perfect, and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tack in responding to Jeff Simmermon's request. But that's life. At murky, we try to treat people with common courtesy, and expect the same from our customers. Not in response or in turn, but because that's how people are supposed to treat each other. We're not supposed to go through life looking for reasons to get pissed off. Life's too short for that sort of thing.
To Mr. Simmermon, you overplayed your hand with your vulgar tip-schtick. While I certainly won't bemoan you your right to free-speech, I have to respond to you in your own dialect: F*@k you, Jeff Simmermon. Considering your public threat of arson, you'll understand when I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick.
Respectfully,
Nick
Owner, murky coffee
[UPDATE July 16, 2008: A follow-up here]
posted at 7:47:00 PM -215 comments-
215 Comments:
While I didn't agree with what had happened (on either the part of the customer, Jeff, or the barista, David), I think this open letter is really quite immature and childish.
I'll remember your coffee shop now not as the one that I would go to visit to get some no-bullshit-coffee in DC, but as the one owned by the guy who threatened to punch a customer in the dick.
Way to boost business, guys.
Nick, he didn't ask David to serve him the drink over ice. He asked for the espresso and a cup of ice. He was going to pour it over ice himself and David need not besmirch his barista-ness.
Are you saying if a customer wanders into your shop, gets an espresso, whips out a package of salt at the table and pours some in the espresso that David is going to tell him that it's not cool? It's his espresso! I'm sure it's a fab espresso and that's terrific that David's standards of baristiality won't allow him to ice it, but a customer can surely ice it themselves once they've paid for it?
Wow, you sound like a complete jackass. If I want to buy your espresso drink and take it outside and pour it on the sidewalk, I can do it. If I want to buy your espresso drink and mix it with raspberry Kool-Aid and drink it, I can do it. If I want to pour it over ice, I can do it. Why should you care what I do with it once I've bought it from you? If that's the away I like it - over ice - then it doesn't dilute the quality for me. It actually enhances it. It's pedantic, pretentious, self-important people like you and your ridiculous barista who make our society such a joke, and I hope your business suffers as a result of your behavior. By the way, why does the owner of a fucking coffee shop need a blog anyway? Who cares what you have to say?
fuck you and your shitty coffee
I think Murky Coffee is great, and I'm super bummed that the Cap Hill location had to close... but man, you need to *seriously* re-think your last paragraph. Seriously, absolutely nothing good can come of that for you.
Way to take it like a chump, man.
"No modifications to the Classic Cappuccino. No questions will be answered about the $5 Hot Chocolate (during the months we offer it). No espresso in a to-go cup. No espresso over ice. These are our policies. We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them."
What exactly was the reason for not putting a shot of espresso over ice? You are being quite murky, ghetto coffee sir.
Right on. My first reaction is "lighten up," but the ending had me come around to your side. Thanks for a hilarious and totally un-PC response.
Fuck you and your coffee ideology.
You have ice? You have espresso? Add one to two.
He's not asking you to make a frappucino or something.
How is there possibly a difference between espresso over ice and espresso with water?
And yes, ghetto lattes suck. There are other solutions to that, like not charging arbitrary amounts.
Nick, are you kidding me?!? I mean, nevermind trying to reconcile the whole "treating people with common courtesy" thing with your not paying the DC taxes that fund your customers' school systems and social services; how abour reconciling it with the "punch you in your dick" comment?
Jesus, I've actually found myself missing Murky on the Hill here and there, but you just managed to put an end to that with one post on the 'net. Well played.
I found Simmermon's blog via boingboing, and read his story with a chuckle. But after reading your response....
I don't live in the DC area, but my brother does. I drive up to see him a few times a year. On my way, I come right through the Arlington area on 395. Next time I go see him, I'm going to make a special trip by your establishment and enjoy a hot cup of coffee. Even if it is August.
"I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want"
I'm not Jeff but you're immature response will definitely mean I'll find a new coffee place. Too bad - I really loved your hot chocolate. Grow up Nick.
I've never been to your store, so I am curious about a couple of things: How soon is a customer aware of your policies? Is it on the outside of the storefront? Written clearly inside for anyone coming in to see? Or does someone only find out that your establishment after coming inside and then waiting in line to order? I suggest a sign, outside, that says owned and operated by pretentious assholes at least that would be fair warning.
"We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them."
So ... are you actually going to share them, or what? I mean, the total lack of reasons are kind of what escalated the situation to begin with. Please, do share. The internet is waiting for you to share.
Hey Nick, I have read Jeff's blog and your response. I do not agree with Jeff's response especially with the tip. However as part of good customer service I would expect you/your staff to have complied with a customer request. I do not like your attitude esp. in the last line "....when I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick....". I certinly wont be visiting your shop if thats how you feel about paying customers.
There is nothing good about who you are or what you do. No chance in hell I'd ever go to one of your wretched stores.
I wonder how many days its going to take before you run this business into the ground like you did your DC one. I hope you're paying your Virginia taxes...douchebags.
Sure... I can see how you managed to mistake a saying like "the customer is always right" for "the customer deserves to be ridiculed and then punched in the dick." It's a pretty common mistake, actually.
I'd mention something here to the rest of the world about they should take you up on your "please don't come into my shop, you philistine" attitude, but I expect you'll just moderate this away anyhow.
I would like to know what quality difference there is between an Americano and espresso over ice.
haha: "punch you in the dick" is priceless. and you are right: arson threats are really really Not Okay.
You make starbuck's sound appealing. Congrats. That's a tough thing to do.
wow, nick, get over yourself. it's fucking coffee.
I Love You.
You have some problems there, man. You need to work on your perspective, espically towards your customers. People like what they like and it ain't your job to change that. Businesses with a "my way or the highway" attitude will lose customers who expect service. Granted a dying breed but there are a few of us left. Take care (of your customers).
Wow. Next time I'm in DC, I know exactly where I'm going to order myself an espresso over ice.
Only I'll need a protective cup first, as to lessen the pain of an inevitable cock-punch.
Did you disable comments on this post on purpose? Because that would just add to your overall douchiness....
I love how you state that you have policies in place, yet don't bother to say why those policies are so. No espresso in a to-go cup? Douche.
...and maybe David could have chosen different words or a slightly different tact in responding to Jeff Simmermon's request.
Especially if David had cared about good customer service.If he'd bothered to explain why you had the "no iced espresso" policy, or at least been less condescending toward Jeff Simmermon, there'd have been one less PR nightmare born in the ghetto. And nobody's momma would cry.
Guy, it's a coffee shop.
Really.
Get over yourselves.
(And public threat of arson? Please.)
You are ridiculous. You're not compromising the espresso, the customer is. Let them do what they want. Next you're going to tell me I can't have ketchup with my fries. C'mon. Get over yourself.
seems nick is the dick in this scenario.
You sound like an asshole, although I hope potential customers take your advice and avoid your high falutin' coffee shack like the plague.
Wow. Do you try to piss off your customers as much as possible? If so, you're doing a pretty good job.
this is like the guy who thought that article about abortion on The Onion was fact. not as funny though..
If it's okay with you, I'd like to use your phrase "I'll punch you in your dick" next time the situation calls for it. And I'll make sure to use the preposition "in" before "your dick", which is just about the funniest thing I've ready this month. Meanwhile, I hope you and Jeff can grab a beer sometime. Just make sure you agree on the microbrew before hitting the bar.
If it's okay with you, I'd like to use your phrase "I'll punch you in your dick" next time the situation calls for it. And I'll make sure to use the preposition "in" before "your dick", which is just about the funniest thing I've ready this month. Meanwhile, I hope you and Jeff can grab a beer sometime. Just make sure you agree on the microbrew before hitting the bar.
Are you kidding with this? I mean... seriously. You care more about your coffee's "integrity" as it travels down someone's throat than you do about the actual someone whose throat it travels down?
I don't live in your town, so no threats about not visiting your establishment, but just sayin'... you wouldn't last a day in my town where the coffee is for the people and not vise versa.
You're going to punch him in the dick? Damn! Not gonna count on you to help the world be a better place I guess. But sho' am glad there's some fine coffee to drink while it all goes to hell.
That's right. Punch him in the dick. It's your store. Your rules. Sadly, Jeff got the upper hand in all of this. But know that, somewhere, a moral victory lies for the taking!
YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING ASSHOLES
Wow, I will not be giving you anymore business.
The man just asked for a beverage, give him what he wants. Perhaps you might make a suggestion about a different type of beverage, but if someone wants something give it to them. We are not talking about mixing narcotics; it is just coffee.
I do think that Mr, Simmermon's post was a bit harsh, but I would expect a responsible business owner to make a friendly reply and be above making childish threats.
Good day to you, Sir!
Hi Nick.
I am visiting DC in the future and always like to go to independent coffee shops. From the tone of your post, though, it seems like you are trying to discourage people from visiting your business. Someone writes a blog post about how they bought two cups of coffee from you, and you return the favor by threatening to punch them in the dick. (And in the same post, basically say that you don't welcome new customers.) BTW, this whole incident probably could have been prevented if your barista had just told Jeff that the reason you don't serve espresso over ice is because you are worried about your customers making ghetto lattes. He probably would have just paid for the latte in that case, and everyone would have been happy.
But basically, instead of being helpful, you treated him like shit, and now he hates your company. Great job.
Anyway, thanks to your post, I will never be visiting your shop. My suggestion to you is to spend less time blogging about injuring your customers and more time paying your taxes.
you are a dick.
Hmm. I'd never heard of a ghetto latte. It seems like you'd need an awfully big cup to make one. Your google link led to sites talking about something called a "venti" which I assume is about the size of a small bucket.
The snarky part of me wants to ask if I can order an americano larger than 8 ounces in your shop, and if so why would you serve such an abomination? But you folks actually sound like a decent coffeeshop, so instead I'll just keep it in mind for next time I'm in the DC area...
You sound like quite a knob.
You do realize you serve coffee. It is not GOLD or some other hard to come by commodity.
The attitude of your coffee shop will be its demise. Good luck with that.
Visitor
Portland, OR
My, what an unbelievable cock you are. I'm grateful I'll never be in your neck of the woods so I won't have to go out of my way to not give you money.
Seeya in the soup lines, bozo.
You serve an americano, tool. You care nothing for the purity of coffee or it's taste, you are just a rule maker for the sake of being a dick. Punch yourself.
"To others reading this I will say that if you don't like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place"
done. I've never heard of your store before, but you can be certain I'll never step foot in it. And I'll be sure to let any one I know in or visiting the area know this story and how you deal with disgruntled customers.
I didn't bother to look and see how long you've been in business, but I would wager 'not much longer' if this is how you treat customers. If I want to piss in my coffee after I've paid for it I'll damn well do it.
You are certainly free to have whatever ridiculous policies you want. And the rest of us are free to make fun of you for it and take our money elsewhere.
Maybe you should have some tea and relax.
Good for you for having all the customers you need!
what a douche!
Dear Nick, Owner, murky coffee,
You are a tool. Get a life, you coffee-douche.
Respectfully,
Michael, former murky coffee customer
Seriously? That's the best you can do, Nick?
First, you've lost all claim to the high ground here. You can't possibly go with "respectfully" and whine about "common courtesy", and then go on with "fuck you" and threats of a cock punch. Either actually be respectful or be fully an asshole.
Second, you're displaying exactly the kind of high-handed, condescending snobbery that your barista was accused of. Before, people might have thought that somebody was having bad day, a weird anomaly. But no, you've made it clear that being an arrogant jerk to customers is the house style, and that it comes from the top.
Third, hiding behind mysterious "policies" is bullshit. You can either be a small, independent joint, and have personal reasons for what you do. Or you can be a large chain with policies that come from the 8th floor of some glassy building, no explanation attached. But trying to hide behind "policies" in a single store is a painfully obvious way of avoiding responsibility.
Fourth, you're still in the wrong. Yes, your customer was a jerk. But the barista was jerky first, and obviously wasn't "happy to share" the reasons behind being refused a reasonable request. If you can't even be man enough to admit that you and your minions were in the wrong, even by the low standards you set for yourself in this post, then it's no wonder you flamed out trying to run a whole second shop.
My advice: man up, say you're sorry, and show at least a vague awareness that you're in a customer service business. That doesn't mean that you have to ever serve an iced espresso if it bruises your delicate sensibilities, but it does mean demonstrating the respect that, so far, is just hot air on your part.
jesus christ guys, its just coffee.
It's not like you're undercooking a chicken here.
lighten up.
he wants iced coffee, give it to him. don't be so full of yourself. there's bigger problems in the world.
OMG get over yourself
You probably won't publish this because of my disagreeing.
Most people do not care about the quality and integrity of coffee. They either drink it for the kick, and/or the taste, which usually means it will become diluted with sugar and milk.
This is coming from a person who presses ALL her coffee and works for Starbucks, who probably houses the most horrifically unnecessarily snobby/fake employees I've EVER encountered [some are genuine]. Yes, their coffee DOES suck, with the exception of their espresso IMO.
Seriously, now. Unless it's making you convulse, I suggest you get over it.
His actions were uncalled for, of course, but so were yours. The customer isn't always right. Fuck that rule, but fuck snobs.
This post guarantees that I will *never* enter your premises. Thanks for being so clear!
That last paragraph is incredibly unprofessional. It's had the salutary effect of fixing your coffee shop's name in my head as a place I should never go.
You show him, Nick.
Wow Nick. I think you're wrong for how you responded to Jeff. Jeff too seems like he's had 20 shots. I dont think Jeff meant he was really gonna burn down your coffee shop. He wrote it 2 be lively /animated 4 his friends not realising it would go viral(be glad there isnt YT video of this incident).
I do think David shouldnt have said " “Hey What you’re about to do … that’s really, really Not Okay.” ".
...Perhaps if David explained that water kills the strength or boldness of the shot Jeff woulda been more receptive.
You are a cunt. Please get fucked. - hate coffee
While I understand the ghetto latte thing [that's truly cheap]. But the kid should NOT have said something about it. Period. While Mr. Simmerman was the completely excessive and overblown ugly american, your server f-d up. Customer is always right. And you kinda f-d up - "To others reading this I will say that if you don't like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want, or select something that we can offer you."
Yah, that's what everyone is going to do. Writing this post was a bad business plan. Justified maybe, but a bad plan.
Jesus wept. What a pair of insufferable douchebags.
I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick.
Let's see.
Your waiter treats your customer like a criminal because he wants to pour espresso over ice - and now you're threatening him with felonious assault because he gave you money with a rude message on it?!
Can you stand back for a second and understand how truly aggressive and unreasonable both your actions are?
Let me explain that a customer is supposed to be a guest in your house. It's one thing if someone is doing something like falling asleep or harassing the customers - it's a completely different thing if he's simply consuming your product in a perfectly reasonable way that offends you but that most people would never even notice.
You should take a long, hard look at yourself. That's not right. "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
The correct answer you should have posted is, "We take our coffee very seriously, but of course he's right that he can drink it any way he likes because, after all, he did purchase it himself for his own use."
Nice.
too bad im not a local.
do you post coffee?
Hmmm, mental note...
Never visit Murky Coffee in VA. (This is why people go to Starbucks)
If you have store policies post or explain them, otherwise they don't exist and your employees just come off as being dicks. Which if they get that wrapped up in how someone else drinks their coffee, they must be anyway.
Worst case scenario Jeff orders a latte, hold everything except for the espresso. You get extra money and you don't have to expose your self and your entire company out to be the dicks that you seem to be so ready to punch.
-Zach from NYC
I found Mr. Simmermon's rant distasteful. I was pleased to see that he posted a link to your response on his blog though. I was happy that I'd get to see both sides of this interesting situation.
Up until the last paragraph, you came across as a respectful individual who truly cares about his business and his employees. But with your final statements, my perception of you changed completely. It honestly saddens me that you stooped to his level, and possibly a little beyond it.
I understand where you are coming from with your response. And because of that I want to point out that you may have done your business far more harm than Mr. Simmermon ever could have with your threats of physical violence.
I wish your you and your business well, but should I ever find myself in Arlington, I'll be finding another non-Starbucks coffee shop.
Hope this all blows over soon,
Susan
You are an asshole who runs a crappy coffee shop. When your shop closes no one will care. No one will remember you.
Douchebag. Douchebag. Everyone is a douchebag.
I think it's a stupid rule, I understand that it ruins everything about the foam drinks. Still a stupid rule.
Jeff seems to be the bigger 'bag. Though it seems the situation could be handled better all around.
I'll be back though... I don't like anything iced other than americano and straight coffee anyhow.
Yay for Douchebags!
you make coffee, you aren't gods.
Wake up to the real world.
Chortle chortle.
If the guy likes espresso over ice then sell it to him, he's your customer, it's not rocket science, customers come in, you sell them products and they pay, then, if you do it correctly the business thrives and everyone is happy.
What in the world are you talking about???
If I want to buy 3 espresso shots from you and pour them in my Thermos full of lime Jello, who the FU*K are you to tell me I can't do that. In case you are unfamiliar with the customer/vendor relationship, here's the drill: I pay you some money that you decide is appropriate, and you give me some stuff I decide is worth it. If I drink it, pour it in my gas tank, or bathe my cat in it, it's none of your damn business. Iced Espresso? THE HORROR. If I want to pour it on Chicken Wings it's none of your GD business. Get a freakin' clue you raging asshat.
you are a fucking idiot. I say this having been a barista and waiter making pro coffee for ten years. if you serve an americano, and an iced americano, you do the exact same thing. with more water. if you offer soy milk. or honey. or skim. you are allowing the people who patronize your business CHOICES.
you ridiculous approach to running a business (likely originating from having the money to open a business just handed to you with out realy earning it) will fail, because no on cares about your self-righteous coffee nazism. i think letting people put sugar in their coffee ruins it. but i still bring them sugar.
Nice going. I guess you can't be a coffee connoisseur unless you can somehow impose your arbitrary values on your customers. Could you possibly follow them home and prevent them from pouring espresso over ice in their own kitchens too? That would be great.
If you have a REAL problem with excessive dairy product waste and abuse, THAT is what you should deal with and address. I manage a bar. If people were stealing/wasting sugar packets or bevnaps or coasters, I'd either remove them or deal with it. I would not stop serving Iced Tea.
Your comment doesn't cut it. I'ts just coffee, not liquid gold or alchemy. If I buy it at a price you determine, I should be able to do with it as I please. Switch to portion packs, put dairy on the service counter or police what needs policing. Don't tell me I can't have iced espresso. ABSURD. I can get this at a dozen fine coffee shops in Austin, chain and local alike.
A follow-up of sorts...
We've got quite a few comments in the moderation-queue, and in a departure from normal procedures, I won't be approving and posting them all. Why? If you want to spew garbage on the internet, get your own blog.
I will, however, respond here to a few legitimate questions that some folks asked.
Q. What's wrong with "espresso over ice?"
Answer: Espresso is a fairly volatile thing, and when it hits ice, it seems to go through a chemical change that we can't fully explain (and I haven't seen a good explanation within our industry quite yet). It does appear to have something to do with ascorbic acid, but when we make our iced americanos (espresso + water + ice), we pour the shots into room-temperature water before adding the ice. Believe it or not, it does make a difference. Pouring espresso over ice creates unpleasantly acrid flavors.
Somewhat similarly, when we make our iced coffee, we go through the trouble of brewing it double-strength directly onto ice. If you brew coffee normally and then pour the hot coffee over ice, it results in unpleasant flavors. Making iced-coffee the way that we do seems to preserve a lot of the unique flavors from the coffees we're brewing (unlike the popular "Toddy" method of cold-brewing for iced coffee), and yields a great drink overall. Again, not entirely sure why the different technique yields such different results, but it does. If we put the coffee through two slits, it'd probably act all confusingly then too.
The second and more mundane reason has to do with the infamous "ghetto latte." More than half of the customers who we gave "iced espresso" to (back before our now infamous policy) would take that cup to the condiment bar and pour 8-14 ounces of milk out of the dairy pitcher, effectively taking advantage of a perceived loophole in the "system." Just as buying a cup of coffee doesn't entitle you to take a pound's worth of sugar packets home with you to put into your jar at home, this "ghetto latte" practice was pretty disheartening and distracting to the baristas. Call it our "infield fly rule," but "no espresso over ice" became our policy in 2006.
Q. Why do you allow "iced americanos," but not iced espresso?
Answer: See answer above.
Q. But why would David, the barista in question, "Hey, what you’re about to do-that’s really, really not okay?"
Because we have our policy, and David was trying to support it, even though the other barista who rang this customer up gave in and gave him "a double espresso and a cup of ice," which, to be frank, the baristas aren't supposed to do.
Q. Why did you threaten the guy with violence? That's not cool!
Maybe you're right. But if someone posts on the internet "the only way I’m ever coming back to Murky Coffee in Arlington is if I’m carrying matches and a can of kerosene" as this dude did, I will, without remorse, post publicly that I will defend our property, even with violence. Yeah, what I wrote was ridiculous. A ridiculous response to a ridiculous statement... at least I hope so. If not, I hope his dick is at least big enough to punch.
Q. The customer is always right
Yeah, that's true. Actually, nevermind. It's bullshit.
Every customer is a welcome guest. But even welcome guests can overstep their bounds, and demanding that we give you something that we say that we can't or won't is overstepping your bounds for sure. I can pretty much guarantee that we spend more time and energy on making our espresso as great as can be, than anyone else in the DC area. That said, not everyone's gonna love it. Such is life. We have our standards. You're more than welcome to partake in it, and you're completely free not to. We'll keep doing our best (and that includes giving good customer service).
This all leads to a whole thing about consumerism that I've been ranting about for years, but this is neither the time nor place for that.
I will add that it is our internal policy that I support my employees, even when they make mistakes. In this case, David wasn't perfect, but he tried to do the right thing. For the Simmermon-dude to write that crap on that dollar bill waived his rights to any civility. Dish it out, then take it. Mr. Simmermon is a big boy. He doesn't need the blogosphere coming to his defense.
Q. Get over it. It's just coffee.
You're absolutely right. Everyone go home and call your mother and tell her you love her. Afterwards, understand that it is "just coffee" after all. However, coffee is our job. That's all. No more, no less.
Thanks for all the comments and emails (for the record, about 40% supportive, 20% critical, and about 40% ignorant and ridiculous... but that's the nature of the sandbox that we blog in, no?).
-Nick Cho, owner
There's no need to be such an asshole. Really. Now the entire Internet (or at least several millions of them) get to see the bad attitude of both your barrista and yourself. I would suspect that this will severely negatively affect your business.
Be a nice person. Don't be a dick. Apologize. Give people what they ask for.
Work on it. Good luck, but I'd suspect that with this much bad P.R. that you'll go out of business.
"To others reading this I will say that if you don't like the policies, I respectfully recommend that you find some other place that will give you what you want, or select something that we can offer you."
The only way a person could do this is come into your store and try to pay you for your goods and services only to be met with refusal and frustration or to hear about it from a disgruntled customer.
Also, you can offer what the gentleman asked for--you just will not. There's a subtle but important difference there.
" At murky, we try to treat people with common courtesy..."
There's nothing courteous about refusing to let a customer enjoy what they're paying you for--within certain limits. The gentlemen wasn't Barbara Streisand asking for a new toilet seat in its factory wrapper every time he comes in. He just wanted ice.
"We're not supposed to go through life looking for reasons to get pissed off."
It's perfectly reasonable to refuse to allow your employee to create a sub-standard product himself. It's not reasonable for him to extend that and try to stand between your customer and their enjoyment of your product. At that point, he stopped acting as your employee and began a personal dispute with a customer. The employee doesn't have to like the customer or appreciate his tastes--he just has to serve him politely.
With respect, I suggest instructing your employees not to behave similarly in the future if you haven't already, lest other customers find other places to get what they want. If you serve a great product, it could only hurt you and potential customers to lose business for refusing to allow customers to modify their own property peacefully. Again, they should refuse to make the sub-standard product themselves, but not pursue the issue further.
Whatever - and while we're at it, can I suggest that you de-self-aggrandise your web site by changing "hours & locations" to "hours & locatioN" - you are, after all, just one coffee shop.
Kuzzer
Just so you know when writing your policies, "tact" is not short for "tactic". The word is "tack", a sailing term, meaning "an angle of attack toward the wind." It it used to describe an approach taken to a topic or task.
You're a dumbass, Nick.
Nick,
I've got to say, that of all the pretentious clowns who ever opened a business, you really take the cake. The customer wanted to pour his espresso (and as soon as he pays you for it, it is HIS, not YOURS) over ice. maybe that offends your tortured artistic soul, but too bad: try to work it out in therapy.
-jcr
Customer walks into a place, makes a perfectly reasonable (from his point of view), specific and simple request and gets denied it without explanation.
That's not "high standards", or any of that bullshit you try to pass it off as. It's bad customer service, full stop.
If you really have ridiculously high standards when it comes to coffee quality, why don't you try to educate your customers on the finer points of your art? Just saying "it's our policy to annoy you to no end for no good reason" is not a solution.
There's a million disgusting and horrible things I want say about you but I am sure you are proud of your severe character flaws.
I am a random non-blogger who stumbled upon the blog and then this website from a link on a friend's profile on facebook. I was a hospitality consultant in a previous life and a currently an internet business owner. I know that you, Nick, have every right to be upset. However, at the end of the day, this is your business that is now being more and more sullied across the internet because you failed on the cardinal rules- the customer is always right, and even if you don't agree, keep your opinions to yourself and maintain your professionalism. The course of appeasement is always best practice (and cheaper!) than indulging your anger and dividing the public into haters and backers, who before this incident, were never haters at all. I hope that if you want to be a successful business owner, you seek help in conflict resolution and negotiation. I wish you all the best of luck because I hate to see another entrepreneur fail because of ignorance or pride.
your employees are lucky to have a boss who backs them up so. good on you.
I wish I didn't live across the country from your location so that the fact that I would never, ever give you stuck up jackasses any business would mean something.
Pull your heads out of your collective asses.
Sorry, Nick, your guys are douches.
I think that not approving comments and then asserting a particular distribution (40%/20%/40%) is self-serving to the point of ridiculousness.
Obviously you are afraid to be criticized. That's fine. Then don't approve the posts you don't like. But at least don't try to cover it over.
After almost 8 years of GW Bush and his image control team, we are used to it all and see through such tricks. But your particular approach is just a little bit silly.
You guys are dicks.
You know, this all pretty amusing. I was ready to slag the coffee shop for being pompous coffee snobs.
However, I have my own graphic design business (http://www.donovangilhooley.com) which I link to here. Not get more links to my business, but to give an example of why I support the coffee bar. if you'll read the copy at my web site, you'll see that I too, do things my own way. As one of my best friends observed, "It's nice how you tell people you'll be a pain in the ass up front." Which is partially true.
I, too, am going to do my business my way. I will attract the sort of clients I want and like, and deter those who would drain my life force.
This is definitely a tempest in a coffee-cup. As Nick says, "just coffee."
I'm sitting on the fence for this one. I agree with both parties, however as i am commenting on the "owner" blog, I'll aim my comment that way.
Perhaps you could remove the policy and work on suggestions. Train your staff to suggest, advise and entertain, not tell, instruct and ban. It seems you have an agressive mantra in your shop, too much coffee perhaps?
BTW i agree that the customer isn't always right, but respect is a two way street.
There was another restaurant in DC that had about the same type of uptight policies against customers as it seems Murky Coffee has.
The place is (was) called Colorado Kitchen and, for example, they wouldn't allow children to touch their prized salt shaker collection or allow people to move the tables together (once literally got yelled at for attempting this).
Anyway, Colorado Kitchen is now going to close due to its annoying "policies" that are anti-customer.
Ah, capitalism is grand, ain't it? Well, it's only going to get worse for Murky Coffee considering that this is all over the blogs and has gotten people pissed off at you.
ps: Jeff was obviously joking about the kerosene thing.
punching people in their dick should help your bottom line.
Hi Nick,
I'm impressed that your passion for the quality of your coffee has brought you to the point of losing customers. While I can't say I'd ever have gone to your place in the first place (I live in Columbia Heights in the District), I can tell you now that if I ever find myself near you and in need of coffee I will hope to be wearing a cup as I turn away from Murky Coffee to find a Starbucks.
What you fail to recognize is a basic tenet of retail: more often than not the customer IS wrong, but we give in anyway. I've worked in catering for high-end clients for years and there are times that no matter how I've tried to convince a client otherwise, I've had to give in and put fish and meat on the same plate - a culinary horror in my book. Why? Because we, as stewards of our craft, sometimes have to look past our passion, our elitism, and our expertise - to serve it up - and acknowledge that our experience and training is limited to our own selves. Others experience flavors and sensations differently, and should be accorded fairly when their palates are being considered. Furthermore, we can delight in sharing with our customers our experiences in other ways, and hope to effect their changes in the future.
What's wrong with suggesting that this customer try it both ways? If the customer is in your store and spending money, why not offer to let him make it his way AND to make it your way and have him taste the difference? I guarantee that even if he doesn't taste the difference he will at least appreciate your kindness and passion and be one of your biggest fans - heck, he'll probably order it your way from then on. And what have you done? you've gained a loyal customer AND given him some of your special coffee training. A win-win situation. If you tell me that you don't have time to do this for him, well, then, sir, you have no business being so elite.
Your "ghetto latte" argument (the use of "ghetto" screams of classism and racism, btw) is hard to follow. If the milk is going too fast in these situations, you can either provide smaller cups of ice or keep milk products behind the counter (not at all ideal). However, I fail to see how saving a few ounces of milk now and then makes up for the loss of a few would-be regular customers. Surely you use milk to make your non-"ghetto lattes" and the price of a cappuccino is comparable to that of an espresso. What are you really losing then?
What you've done for me, Nick, is to warn me against your arrogance. The shame of it is, that in crafting an elitist policy (built out of your passion for a superior product) you've isolated yourself and brought bad press to your establishment. Until yesterday, I had never heard of Murky Coffee - now, I not likely to ever set foot in your store. The mere mention of your store's name will forever remind me of your arrogance. Let's hope, for your sake, that your customer base is more forgiving and forgetting than I.
I humbly suggest that you strongly re-evaluate your goals as a business owner. Are you hoping to bring people a superior product? Or are you just hoping to glorify yourself?
Kind regards,
Nathan in DC
A Passionate Coffee Drinker
Obviously, you're moderating comments, but I figured I'd just pass on that even Imbibe Magazine doesn't have an issue with iced espresso, only with the skill and technique exhibited by baristas who don't know what they're doing. From their 2008 Ultimate Summer Drinks Guide:
“Some cafes don’t serve iced coffee at all — only iced Americanos. When ice rubs up next to ice cubes, things can sour, literally. But with good technique, skilled baristas can make great tasting iced espresso.”
(And of note, I found the 2008 Ultimate Summer Drink Guide courtesy of *YOUR COFFEE ROASTERS*, Counter Culture, who have mirrored it here:
http://www.counterculturecoffee.com/docs/Imbibe_icedcoffee_2008.pdf
Apparently, they don't care all that much that people are putting their precious beans over ice...)
Yo,
I appreciate the "customer is not always right" stance. I work at an independent record store and am a staunch believer in the fallibility of customers... as it is in my face every single day.
Anyway, I am wondering why you won't answer questions about your hot chocolate. That seems like kind of a jerky move. I can understand not wanting to give away the recipe , etc. but what about allergies and the like? I'm vegan - can't I ask if the hot chocolate can be made dairy free?
Just curious.
Thanks!
You're a real fool, you know that right? Enjoy the way this smug blog post is going to ruin your overpriced coffee racket. You lose, sir. Do you think any consumer wants to spend money at a business that addresses a dissatisfied customer like this? You should be falling over yourself sending free coffee coupons to that guy. Unprofessional.
Youre a jerk. Once you take payment for said coffee, it is no longer yours. It no longer belongs to you. The person who paid for it ownes it and as long as what they do breaks no laws, they can do whatever they want. If a customer wants to buy a coffee, take it in to the restroom and piss in it and then drink it, thats their call. You have nothing to say about it.
I wonder why the Murky Coffee on Capitol Hill closed?
http://www.counterculturecoffee.com/docs/Imbibe_icedcoffee_2008.pdf
At the bottom of the sidebar on the fourth page of that guide (marked page 42 in the PDF) is the following paragraph:
“Some cafes don’t serve iced coffee at all — only iced Americanos. When ice rubs up next to ice cubes, things can sour, literally. But with good technique, skilled baristas can make great tasting iced espresso.”
Perhaps your employees just need better technique.
I understand not wanting people to rip you off and use all your creamer. It does not, however, excuse the poor customer service that led to the escalation of this issue in the first place.
I often drink iced espresso. I enjoy them. Of course, what I enjoy and what you enjoy are possibly very different things. But I'm also a former fire-breather... my taste buds aren't quite...normal.
The point is, if someone isn't trying to rip you off you shouldn't act like the MPAA and assume that everyone is a crook.
Kudos to you, Nick. It's your store, your rules. Stick to your guns and serve the best coffee you can. Murky has been around for over 6 years, so you're doing something right.
Iced espresso is iffy at best anyways. Ah well, he's an admitted Starbucks customer, that should say it all there.
I think you should google "espresso freddo". You might learn that you do not know as much about coffee-based drinks as you think you do.
You all are such effing douche-bags. Moderate the fuck out of this. Next time I'm in the area I'll be sure to spend my money elsewhere.
Sorry, I have to post again. The fact that "coffee is your job" just makes your position all the more laughable. You really are nuts.
Here's what I think:
http://www.trickykegstands.com/coffeeBlogPostResponse.html
I agree the customer isn't always right, but:
* ``we have our reasons, and we're happy to share them,'' but you didn't, until you were asked three times. David didn't share them in person, either of the two times Jeff approached him, and you didn't share them in your initial response, only in the followup. Naturally he felt you guys were a bunch of holier-than-thou douchebags.
* threat of arson, defending property with violence, whatever. You don't speak in the same language he does, so pick a side---pick this quasi-legal ``policy'' ``threat of violence'' ``property'' fake-corporate speech where you try to sound like a lawyer but make up the law as you go along based on what strikes your fancy as reasonable, or else write as he does like an ordinary guy with transparent motivations and no pretention or veiled overly-hasty allusions to laws you don't fully understand. Trying to talk in both ways just makes you look like a douchebag, just as the original ``because that's our policy'' comment did
* why don't you post on his blog, where you can't censor it? If we're picking sides, that's where you lost this commentor---when you censored your blog. Fuck that. In my experience with the Internet, only non-listening not-particularly-bright douchebags with no self-confidence pull such shit---the same sort of people who tend to own firearms. My vote's with the other guy, for personal reasons.
For the record, I've no problem if you don't want to pour espresso over ice. i think the whole thing's kind of funny, and in Jeff's place I would have tried to be amused. I just don't like being surrounded by douchebags, and I agree with Jeff that in the case of your shop douchebagery is a subtle attitude that comes from the top down. It usually is. It's not just a different way of talking that's required, it's a completely different attitude.
And attitude and atmosphere is what define a coffee shop.
If you know more about coffee than me, that's fine, but cheerfully try to share this wider perspective with me, rather than getting all fucking smug about it when I ask for something like you think you've just made me look stupid. What could possibly make you think it's appropriate or appreciated to condescend to your customers, who come up to your counter with the assumption that they're in a relatively safe and supportive place, not as though they need to brace themselves for some kind of hostile encounter?
And all this hate at people who take eight ounces of precious expensive milk needs to be dealt with in a way that doesn't poison the atmosphere of your entire shop. Good luck with that---it sounds like you'll need it.
I work at an independent coffee shop in Columbus, Ohio and we have a similar policy about espresso on ice. It's just like asking for ketchup to put on a filet mignon at a high-end steakhouse. The standards of craft have fallen to wayside in favor of giving in to every infantile consumer demand. I applaud your store and wish it continued success long into the future.
I was a regular customer, but I'm not anymore. I'm really disappointed with the way that you've treated another customer - even if he is a prick.
I've always thought your policy was dumb - now I'm sure of it.
Why not just explain what an Americano is? Maybe the guy would have said "oh, OK, then I'll take one of those, I mean its basically the same thing" Instead of preaching that your coffee is great, maybe you could break it down a little and actually explain to people WHY its great and what you're doing to make it great before this happens. Either way I don't give a shit.
Just wanted to congratulate you as a former barista myself. You're doing a fine job. Found you via Consumerist. Be well!
A lot of retail establishments have taken to calling their customers "guests" as a marketing device. It all started with the Disney Store in the 80's. Be that as it may, it's only a word to make the customer feel welcome, it's not supposed to inherit the negative attributes of being a guest. What that means is that these aren't guests by the dictionary definition. They are paying guests. That means they should be able to have what they want, how they want it. Especially if they're willing to do the extra legwork of putting it together.
You think you're the only business who has to deal with customer preference interfering with quality control? Not even close. Respectable businesses just hand out friendly advice, disclaim their liability, and let the customer proceed as they wish. The people who care about their espresso's integrity won't be the ones who pour it over ice, anyway. So who, or what, exactly are you trying to protect? If your goal is to drive out your non-committed customers and send them to Starbucks, you're not exactly fighting the good fight, are you? Your just creating more reasons for people to use the established coffee-houses, who will in the long run make people forget that espresso can even come as a hot drink.
A lot of retail establishments have taken to calling their customers "guests" as a marketing device. It all started with the Disney Store in the 80's. Be that as it may, it's only a word to make the customer feel welcome, it's not supposed to inherit the negative attributes of being a guest. What that means is that these aren't guests by the dictionary definition. They are paying guests. That means they should be able to have what they want, how they want it. Especially if they're willing to do the extra legwork of putting it together.
You think you're the only business who has to deal with customer preference interfering with quality control? Not even close. Respectable businesses just hand out friendly advice, disclaim their liability, and let the customer proceed as they wish. The people who care about their espresso's integrity won't be the ones who pour it over ice, anyway. So who, or what, exactly are you trying to protect? If your goal is to drive out your non-committed customers and send them to Starbucks, you're not exactly fighting the good fight, are you? Your just creating more reasons for people to use the established coffee-houses, who will in the long run make people forget that espresso can even come as a hot drink.
Ahh, sadly after many years of on and off DC area living, I now live in Louisiana (home of the bulk produced cafe au lait). Were I not living so far away, I would patronize your shop everyday. Standards are important. It's nice to know there are some places that have them.
Huzzah, Nick.
Now, about the dick punching... that hurt just to read.
Collateral damage, dude.
-Tim Noble
Town Hall Coffee
You guys are a service business, right?
Right.
So why don't you take credit cards anymore? Murky sucks and you have just listed all the reasons why.
It is hot as hell outside and you don't serve iced espresso. Get over yourself and pay your taxes.
hey nick cho, be happy this is America where we allow any douchebag with capital to open up a pretentious ass coffee shop. Congratulations you serve coffee and you're anal about it. I hope you're proud of yourself.
As someone who used to take lemon packets meant for iced tea, sugar packets, and the free cup of water to make lemonade at a Burger King in high school, I totally understand your policy.
Also, in regards to the quality of your coffee, I wish more people cared that much about their work.
"Considering your public threat of arson, you'll understand when I say that if you ever show your face at my shop, I'll punch you in your dick."
Tough words. Very tough. Perhaps he would like it if you punched his dick.
You've got a lot to learn about customer service. Your coffee snobbery notwithstanding, as a business owner you cannot take everything personally and continue to antagonize people. Also, threatening bodily harm on anyone is a felony, FYI, regardless of whether they're threatening arson or not. You've already screwed yourself with the tax problems. Don't you think your behavior is contributing to these problems?
I usually try to separate the ego of the artist from their art, or in this case, the business owner from the business, but I can't. Your behavior is that of a petulant child. I WAS a loyal customer - now I'll be going to Greenberry's. At least they're generally unpretentious.
Your decision to part from normal policy and post no comments is a transparent attempt to keep people from seeing the criticisms being leveled against your store and its policies. Furthermore, I find your professed commitment to customers severely undermined by your comments and hostility. Frankly, you should have kept your mouth shut. You've lost a lot of business, and it will start to show soon.
wow, just wow. You've have just made sure I will *never* enter your establishment. Get over yourself.
Nice customer service!
-1 customer for you.
The point about DIY lattes is well taken. It has been so utterly bizarre seeing this all over LiveJournal, although at least something's being posted in the Arlington comm besides metro outages and recommendation requests for really good optometrists. FWIW, just think of this as free publicity.
In that light, when can we expect the "I'll punch you in your dick" Murky t-shirts? Because that would rock.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6wtfNE4z6a8
You're an asshole. May your business shrivel up and die before your eyes.
well, i won't be stopping at murky coffee, that's for sure.
You rock dude. Nut punch all you want! This guy is a whiney bitch
another douch bag owner with a shitty business. I hope you fail.
Hi Nick,
I used to be a customer of Murky Coffee, but I won't be showing up any longer.
Not because I don't want to get punched in the dick (I don't), but you sound kind of like the soup nazi from Seinfeld.
Matt
Murky makes the best coffee in the area. I agree with your policies, Nick. Still, you probably shouldn't threaten junk punching. (dude was a jerk, but you gotta take responsibility for your own actions and speech, regardless - don't let some dumb blogger lower the bar)
I also wish Cap Hill didn't close. Don't let Arlington go the same route - render unto Caesar what is his. And hang in there. This too shall pass.
Alright... this is ridiculous.
Have you really gotten to the point in your coffee pomposity that you don't think that the customer is important. If someone wants something a certain way, and they know the issues with why you think it's "Not Okay" and they still want it the way they asked, do it.
The customer is what's important in a food-service industry and I understand that standards are important, but so it's product knowledge. Let the customer know why you think something is "Not Okay" when they ask and if they insist that's how they like it, make it.
You should make the customer enjoy their experience hell or high water and want to return. It's called the service industry for a reason and you should keep that in mind.
The man ordered TWO cups of coffee and still left a tip even with this LOW level of service. I think he should have walked out and told anyone about to head in about his experience. We don't need businesses like this aggressively trying to steer a customer away from what they want.
Wow.
Why don't you pay your taxes?
Why no questions about the hot chocolate?
Good job sticking up for yourself, and your business. If he wants a Starbucks drink, he should've gone to Starbucks instead of acting like a whiney bitch at your store. It's like going to a more exclusive diner, and then freaking out when they won't make you a Big Mac. I'm tired of the ridiculous "Customer is always right" attitude people use the justify their disgusting and rude behaviour.
In any case, it'd be awesome to see you guys bring out a drink called the "Cockpunch" :P
I own a shop myself and I understand exactly where you are coming from. I just wish you would not have added bad language and a threat. It really missed up a very good response.
"Q. Get over it. It's just coffee.
You're absolutely right. Everyone go home and call your mother and tell her you love her."
It doesn't matter who's right or wrong here. GREAT way to end the debate. I just called Mom and said, "Nick Cho said to tell you I love you, so, love you Mom."
I certainly won't be patronizing Murky any longer.
I don't knowingly give money to assholes.
Crap like this is why I'd rather deal with Starbucks. You do realize the pretentiousness of this turns people away, right? Thinking you can control what a customer does with your product after they bought it turns people away, too. The bad press on the Internet turns people away. Your racists comments about "Ghetto Latte" turns people away. I hope you enjoy bad press because you've got tons of it now.
Honestly, this whole things seems to have blown up sky high and neither party really wanted it to get as big as it did. The customer could have handled things better, the barrista could have handled things better too. So, eevryone's at fault. On the one hand, if he's all that determined that he wants it caffinated and iced, the barrista could have explained that they don't do it and why, and offerend instead to sell him the iced americano thing. On the other hand, he could have simply said thank you and left and found another coffee shop if he was that upset/determined. You have your policy, and if he were that upset, he could have spoken to the manager, I presume. That's the point of the free economy tho- if he wants, he can simply walk out. Nobody stuck a gun to his head saying that he had to drink there.
I'm with you on this, Nick. And I went to Murky yesterday just before you posted this comment and ordered a double espresso in Jeff's "honor". No ice.
Good for Murky for taking pride in their product.
Well said. I don't even drink coffee but if/when I'm ever in D.C. I'll be stopping in even if it's just on principal. Hopefully you will be serving your hot chocolate. That, I do love. But I have high standards. I'm assuming you can meet them :-)
It's take a "different tack" rather than "different tact."
Hi Nick,
You are obviously passionate about the quality of the coffee beverages you offer. I was a sales rep for a coffee distributor, and I understand the reasons for not offering certain types of beverages on the menu. As for the "ghetto latte", I've never heard of it, but I'm sure there are people out there who would love to take advantage of their baristas. Although I get that the espresso may not sit right on ice, some customers may prefer that taste, and they should not be judged for it, especially not with an elitist tone. It would be another issue entirely if you were getting complaints from those customers about the taste of that particular iced espresso. We always took the time to educate the customer about "best practices for best quality product", but there is no reason to scold or belittle the customer who is otherwise happy to pay for their beverage and tip the barista, hopefully. I do hope that you and Jeff never have to go to blows over "just coffee", but it was inappropriate for him to deface American currency in the process of lashing out. I feel, though, that your reaction was less than professional. The customer may not always be right, and you certainly have the right to defend your operation, but let's not encourage the "punch in the dick" mentality going forward.
Keep up the good work, but keep in mind that the blog doesn't vanish when both of you have cooled down... Perhaps over ice. ;)
Thanks for your time,
Sarah
I bet you an espresso on ice you'll be out of business before the end of the year.
I enjoyed your lattes on Capital Hill. Too bad your business skills and crappy attitude won't allow you to continue making them.
About your comment that "Pouring espresso over ice creates unpleasantly acrid flavors"...this may be true (i'll just take your word for it), but the people that are ordering this drink do so becuase they LIKE the way it tastes right? Thats all people want, to be able to enjoy coffe they way they like it. If they can't do that at your shop then they can go elsewhere (I did).
Okay, both blogs.
Not that you need my approval, but I think if you own your own business, you have a right to offer and serve whatever you want, and to refuse to serve anyone anything any time. It's too bad this Jeff guy chose to a) be completely retarded and b) become enraged over the incident instead of asking about the iced americano like he did the 2nd time (as he described in his blog, a much more civil exchange).
“I would like the strongest iced beverage your policy will allow,” I said.
“How about an Americano with four shots and light on the water” asked the barista.
I’d never had one before — so I said, “sure.”
Just because someone works behind a counter doesn't mean they aren't a human being. I am actually a bigger fan of murky now that you have stood up for your employee who obviously got shit all over.
I realize this comment won't be going up on the blog, and I don't know if you'll even read it, but that said...
I respect what you said about coffee being your business and therefore you need to be serious about it. I also think it's fair to argue that the customer is in fact not always right.
Murky Coffee is constantly packed, so you all must be doing something right.
However, your language and approach is painting you as the villain. You sound arrogant and kinda crazy. This is now on DCist, so a lot more people are seeing you in this light.
This is utterly rediculous.
The guy paid for his espresso-
The guy paid for his cup of Ice-
It's none of your barista's business WHAT this guys does with either after he paid for them.
Where do you get the idea that you have any right to be so unbelievably self righteous, and pompous?
Nick,
I have to say what you have done is one of the most irresponsible customer service and conflict resolution as a business owner. I myself is a coffee enthusiast but I believe what your barista initially said to the customer was out of line. There could have been a better way of explaining what the policy is and why the policy exists. You took that further and publically swore at your customer in a blog. It amazed me at that point that you actually own a business. I live in the coffee capitol of the States and I go to pretty coffee caring places. But, nobody EVER takes themselves seriously as you and your employee has. When someone drinks "incorrectly" they suggest a certain way but never say a certain way is not ok. If you are a coffee lover you should know that coffee is as much a necessity as a artistic beverage. As a coffee enthusiast, I believe people like you are the people who give bad name to artisan coffee. Making is so selective that regular people rather even try it not to face people like you and your employees. It is a horrible business model. Yeah, you will say, just don't come to your shop but again that is not something a responsible business owner would say to a customer.
What if, and mind you I know this is an amazing thought, he just wanted iced espresso? Did he add milk/half and half? If not, then it seems to me your rationale, while acceptable, didn't really apply. Since your barista sold him the cup of ice, that should have ended the encounter, and the additional, unnecessary confrontation was entirely your business's fault. It was after that little bit of passive aggression that the tip insult occurred, right?
A final suggestion: How about letting customers decide if they like the flavor of an iced espresso or not? If you want to fight the ghetto latte, then give them a triple espresso over ice in a tiny cup.
Nick,
A.W.E.S.O.M.E.
Thanks for making coffee that doesn't taste like burned shit.
Hey Nick. I feel for you guys. Former waitress here, and victim of "ghetto lemonades". LAMENESS. You have good reason to have that policy.
I'm wondering if there's a different way to set things up so you don't have to get into these kinds of altercations with customers? Charging more for a cup of ice? Keeping the milk somewhere it's monitored?
You're a dick and I hope your shit shop goes under.
Nick, I don't even like coffee. But I would force a cup of whatever Murky recommended. Your reply to that d-bag Simmermon was awesome. I'm so sick of that "customer is always right" nonsense. Too many jerk customers look to that cliche as an excuse to treat their fellow man like shit. Kudos to you and to Murky for having high standards, and having the moxie to defend them.
Nick,
Before I read your blog response, I pretty much dismissed Jeff Simmermon as having a bad day and your barista as having bad judgment in the heat of the moment with a customer. Net net - I was about to ignore it.
But your blog response flat out lost me as a customer, along with about 10 other people I was having lunch with today who said they usually go to your spot to avoid funding Starbucks.
We have no interest in helping out Mom and Pop if Pop thinks he's too good for his customers' preferences.
Further, the five lawyers at the table also all agreed that technically your threat to punch Jeff Simmermon is actually much more explicit and actionable than his statement of a preference to bring kerosene with him on his next visit.
Luckily the thought of you trying to be a fighter made us all giggle.
You are certainly full of... murky coffee, sir.
Thank you for your candor; it has helped me to make an informed decision. I prefer to take my business to establishments where the fish is not clearly rotting from the head down.
[I imagine you won't have the fortitude to post this or any other message, no matter how profanity-free it is, that has aught to say against your fabulous espresso emporium. I shall have to be content in the knowledge that you read it personally.]
Wouldn't it be easier just to have a policy that says:
"customers who are observed adding excessive amounts of milk or cream to espresso will be charged the difference in price between espresso and latte."
?
BTW, are you any relation to Frank Cho the creator of Liberty Meadows?
You, Mr. Coffeeman, are totally awesome.
Add me to the critical pile, which much be growing larger than 20%.
I think the initial incident was ridiculous (on your part), and your follow-up has been shameful.
I imagine from this update that my opinion matters little, bu, you will no longer have my business. And that should matter.
I pull better shots of espresso out of my ass on humid days. Want real espresso? Go to italy or come check my kitchen early afternoons around 3 pm...
Oh yeah and i'm not a dick about it if my friends want to dip their nuts in it or whatever makes them happy...
Dear Mr. Cho,
I applaud you.
I agree completely with your position, and feel that Mr. Simmerman was out of line.
Just wanted to throw you some quiet support from a random Canadian.
Cheers,
Knut Rokne, Calgary, Alberta
PS - If I'm ever in the area, you can be sure I'll swing by for an espresso.
so nick, you kind of messed up here. by retaliating with the same base verbosity that mr simmermon used, you invalidate your entire argument and have started an idiotic flame war that will do your business little to no good. yes, any publicity is good publicity, but now you have officially pronounced yourself as "that Douchey coffee shop." bravo. if you could have just swallowed some bullshit rant on some stupid blog, the whole thing would have been quickly forgotten. but no, you had to have the last word. next time, just take a deep breath and let it go. its the internet. who fucking cares.
What do you feel about doing an Affagatto? These days thats literally the only thing I get from specialty coffee shops/stands other than quality hot chocolate. (Affagatto being espresso over icecream. Yum!)
And not ever having patronized your establishment, what is up with the $5 hot chocolate? :)
Oh since you are moderating the comments i see that my note to you will not be sent, thats too bad. You are a bad sport buddy.
You, sir, sound like an absolute douchebag.
What I don't understand is why you have a policy against serving something a customer wants?
If someone WANTS 3 shots of espresso over ice, clearly they enjoy the taste and are aware of the supposed "chemical change" that takes place when espresso hits ice? So who the fuck are you to tell them they are wrong for enjoying this taste?
absolutely awsome! thats all I've got.
~Jons lil bro
For what it's worth, I'd have given him the same response about punching him. Hell, I'd probably go overkill and notify police (really) about the arson threat. Just because he may have been blowing off steam doesn't mean one of his readers won't think it's a great idea. Scary shit, that.
Thanks for the fight though.... now I know a little bit about espresso. :o)
I) Anyone who wants four shots of espresso on ice straight likes their coffee acrid. Give me Sulawesi and nothing else. Coffee's an issue of taste.
II) Per the Ghetto Latte issue: it sounds like you need smaller cups and a clear policy like "Use more than 2 oz milk/creamer? We will not sell you coffee in future."
Let's assume that one enjoys the "acrid" flavor the occurs when you pour espresso over ice. If you're interested, I could explain the solidification of the currently liquid oils, but I don't think you care.
Let's just assume this person enjoys that, okay? With me so far sparky? Who are you to tell him or her that your policy is to not give them what they want if it's in your power to create it?
I mean, I can fully dig that you don't like it, fine. It's not your place to tell anyone what they like or that you simply won't give them something they want because you don't like it.
That's really, really Not Okay.
"No sleeping in the shop. If you're asleep, you'll be tapped on the shoulder and asked not to sleep in the shop. We've had to ban a customer because of his chronic napping."
What if that unfortunate customer is narcolpetic? If you refuse to serve narcoleptics, then you are discriminating against the disabled. Is it your "policy" then to do so?
I like where you're going with this. We're a Democracy. The customer isn't the master, and the service provider isn't the slave. You're on equal footing; two human beings interacting and engaging in a transaction. You do the best you can to provide a superior product that people want to buy, but you're under no obligation to kowtow to customers' whims. I don't live in the D.C. area, but when I'm up there, I'll stop by your shop most definitely. I also appreciate that you support your employees and seem to empower them with the right to expect respect from your customers. That's awesome. I wish more people were like you.
Wow. You know what, it's your shop. You can make serve what you want, and you can choose to whom you will serve it. I own a small candy store where I like to keep an inventory of stuff that you can't find just anywhere, and I wouldn't special order someone a Milky Way. I can understand having policies. I can understand not empowering your employees to bend the rules. I can understand getting frustrated when someone wants them bent.
So, fine.
You know what I can't understand, though? "Ghetto latte." I can't understand why a business owner - in a service industry business, no less - would, in a post on a blog that can be read by millions and millions of potential customers, use such a gross, racist term. I can't really understand why you'd use it at all, but I really am having trouble making sense of your decision to do it where it could alienate the entire internet-access-having universe.
You are talking about COFFEE, right? Not some precious, rare, one-of-a-kind piece of art? I love good coffee but I would never tell someone else how to enjoy it. Do you allow people to put SUGAR in the coffee? In my opinion, that is nauseating and tells me that the drinker doesn't appreciate coffee, but I never tell someone not to do it. Get over yourself. You are a really good specimen of what is wrong with the DC area. Self-important, no sense of what really matters. And I'd like to know what happened to that money that was supposed to go to paying taxes. I'm one of the schlubs who will have to pay more than my fair share to make up for your HOW THE HELL COULD YOU NOT KNOW YOU HAD TO REMIT SALES TAX TO THE GOVERNMENT negligence (and I'm being generous here and assuming it was negligence). Are you paying the sales tax and payroll tax in Virginia or will we soon be reading about how OOPS you just didn't know and never thought to hire a good bookkeeper (not that it is all that hard - your register keeps track of the sales tax for you).
Wow. You are possibly the most self-righteous store owner I've ever come across. The other guy might have behaved badly, but it's hard to believe that you're not just some kind of SNL parody character or something. How very... silly you are.
Nick,
"The customer is always right" is the single worst phrase in the English language. It allows people to behave like entitled, condescending assholes and be as demanding as their little hearts desired because they would always be "right". Fuck that.
Thank you for having the dignity to stand up to this guy. If no one ever speaks up against these tools, it is saying, on some sick level, that what they are doing is ok. It's not. His character was proven when he belligerently challenged your barista,a and then left that little "tip".
What a fucking jerk.
I go to Murky almost every day and will continue to loyally patronize such an establishment where the employees and owner actually care about the quality of the product they are serving. By refusing to bend and maintaining such rigid standards, I know you are providing people with coffee in it's whole as it is meant to be experienced. I guess some people aren't used to that in this disposable world, and they don't recognize quality when they see it.
Thank you for your passion, and Kudos to you, Nick.
Regards,
Jennifer
The problem you face is one of logical inconsistency. It is within policy for your baristas to give a customer a cup of ice, yes? And it's obviously within policy to sell espresso, am I correct? Then that's all that matters.
You are absolutely within your right to offer your opinion on whether or not what the customer is doing falls within your definition of appropriate treatment of coffee, and "it's just coffee" is not a proper argument against it. But it is bad form. It is bad form because here are these two products that are readily available to the customer.
Once the money is handed over, ownership of the products is handed over.
In order for your opinions to matter more than anyone else's, a part of the customer-proprietor agreement of this transaction then has to be some sort of contract, verbal or nonverbal, that upon purchase of the product it will not be used in this specific way. You are perfectly within your right to do that.
But keep in mind that you are selling a product. You are a salesman. If your goal is money, then your policies are detrimental to your goal and therefore redundant. If your goal is not money, then you are not a salesman, you are a person with sales as a hobby.
You are not an artist and a salesman at the same time, you are one or another. Businesses do not operate with feelings or morals that are not directly justified with money. That is what a business is defined as. The cold unfeeling uncaring machine is a necessary part of our system and it's what you're supposed to represent.
Do whatever you want with your your product, but be consistent. Your lack of consistency is what angered the customer, not the philosophy itself.
I really hope that you realize your rebuttal, especially in light of the author of the original blog post has said he was a jerk, proves that as big a jerk as he might be, you are the much bigger jerk, as well as not knowing two things about running a business. I hope your strict adherence to your policy, as well as your new policy of telling your customers to fuck off (ban for napping at a coffee shop? Is it that he was napping, or he was napping after drinking your coffee? What does that say about the quality of your coffee) works out for you, because I can say, as someone who has worked in retail for five years of my life, you are on your way to success. Oh, by the way, I'm being sarcastic. You guys suck and fuck you.
Also, don't tell me what I can do with my coffee. I am an American, and that gives me the right to a) be an asshole whenever I please (as you have shown in your FAQ), as well as b) DRINK MY COFFEE ANY FUCKING WAY I WANT TO. You're lucky that your employee didn't tell me what to do with my coffee, because I would have told him to go fuck himself, asked for the name of the owner, and then told the owner to go fuck himself. You can call me "ignorant" if you like, but that just means we're in the same boat. Looking over the FAQ, you are one ignorant motherfucker.
Hey Nick, you're a pathetic sack of shit. Hope I never bump into you or I'll have to send your mother a box containing your sawn-off skull.
The "customer is always right" BS can be taken too far. You won't lose a penny or a minute of sleep for losing this customer. Thanks for standing up for your employees!
Hi Nick,
I'm with you on this one. Your bold stand has let me to revisit the hasty judgment about you I reached after the news earlier this year. Also, the last portafilter.net podcast was phenomenal.
Best regards, Mike Miller
milwaukeespecialtycoffee.com
You get a +1 for the "punch in the dick" threat, but past that, I think it's a pretty stupid policy. Now, before I rant, it's your business, and you can do what you want, how you want. Ultimately, I think all coffee sucks, so I really could care less about how you opt to serve yours.
I think it's a dumb policy because it seems overly pompous and far, far too precious. You don't have to offer it on the menu, you can explain why it sucks and why you don't recommend it, but in the end, why not make your 5 or 10 bucks or whatever you charge by giving a guy a cup of whatever he wants. It's not like he is going to set a precedent and a stream of iced cappucino lovers are going to flood your shop.
Instead, you have opted to come across as a complete coffee snob whose attitude towards your customers is that they are full of shit and too stupid to know it. Your points about why you don't do it may be perfectly valid, but they are overwhelmed by pomposity.
But, as I say, I personally think coffee in any form blows, so maybe that's why I think it's pompous. Whatever.
The next time I come to visit my Sister and BIL in DC, I'm taking a side trip to Murky Coffee.
We need more business owners like Nick.
Nick, You are a pretentious blowhard. Get over yourself.
You are an ass and your wannabe coffe house sucks. Your shit is not quality and you evade taxes.
Tempest in a coffee pot. Life's too short.
Nick, you kick ass!
To you, mr "And I Am Not Lying", please remove your lower ribs and perform auto-fellatio on yourself, because you need to chill-the-fuck out.
-Yama
Teenage coffee fanatic?
LOL COFFEE NAZIs
I'm glad there aren't murky coffees here. You guys sound pretty lame and arrogant. I'm sure this wont get approved, but then, what would i expect from such a pompous ass.
Dear Nick Cho,
Go fuck yourself, you pompous asshole. I hope someone punches you in your vagina and gives you a yeast infection.
Nick,
While I think it's poor business choice to deny a customer a relatively easy drink to make, I understand your reasons for doing so. I also applaud your empowerment of your baristas. Some of the "corporate" coffeeshops do not allow a barista to say the N word (No). To Mr. Simmermon, WTF is WRONG with you? If they don't offer something you want, just go somewhere else, it's not that advanced of a concept. Seriously. Look into counseling or some help, brah.
Dude. Get over yourself. Seriously.
Why don't you just charge the customer a dollar or two for a cup of ice if they insist, even after being told the reasons why you don't think it's good to serve espresso that way?
Barring that, I get why you're particular about coffee. I will say that there is *NO OTHER PLACE* I have ever been to, DC or elsewhere, where I can go in, order a plain black cup of coffee (my preference), and it's actually very, very good. You just can't get a simple, decent cup of black coffee at any other shop. And your baristas are always helpful and will recommend what kind I would like (I prefer a medium to light roast) and offer tastes of different types, even. So, cheers - I appreciated that very much.
But your blog posts sound extremely angry and hostile and I hesitate to go to Murky again for that reason. Once, my friends and I were at this little French cafe (Chez Antoine) that used to be in Adams Morgan and one of them tried to order a plain scoop of ice cream for dessert. It was meant to be only available as a topping for a proper dessert, so the waiter checked and said, "we're sorry, the chef prefers not to serve it that way." It was polite and we understood, there was no problem.
I reject the notion that if ANOTHER person loses his/her sense of civility, that entitles you to do the same and talk about how things are bullshit and threaten violence. So, I certainly don't feel a welcome guest anywhere that such hostility is waiting to come out.
If ghetto lattes piss you off, why not ban people adding 8-14 ounces of milk instead of banning espresso over ice? Maybe he likes those unpleasant acrid flavours.
You're not doing your business any favours acting like a prissy douche.
Worst. Barista. Ever.
Hilarious. You tell a guy you'll punch him in the dick and then sign "respectfully"?
And you do just exactly what the barista does: you simply state the policy without any reason. What poor communication. Why not take advantage of the teaching moment and win people over to your side?
Not very smart business.
nick,
i can smell your smugness way up here in philadelphia. wonder why starbucks does well & most people go there? cause of BS associated with independent holier-than-thou shops like yours
First, I love Counter Culture...and Murky is the closet place the dishes out counterculture with the dedication such amazing coffee deserves. I'm fucking obsessed with coffee and Murky by proxy. One of the aspects of gourmet coffee that intrigues me the most is the amount of intricate knowledge there is to be had concerning all aspects of coffee. Brewing, roasting, agriculture, culture, chemistry, the list goes on and on. I love Murky because I've always felt like you guys share that same interest and have the desire to share that knowledge.
"We have our reasons, and we're happy to share them." By "we" do you mean "all of us except David"? The bottom line here is that an explanation of WHY you have the policy would've not only been effective in chilling this asshat down, but informative to other people as well. The story would've gone much differently if the guy had gotten a lecture on ghetto lattes and asorbic acids. Murky would've looked truly dedicated to its craft and the guy would've learned a few things. Supporting a policy based on a rational desire to not compromise your product is an example of dedication and professionalism; Upholding a policy because "we just do" is being a fucking coffee nazi.
In any case I'm too addicted to coffee to stop going to Murky. It would be sweet if you just told yr baristas not to be dicks. The new school coffee industry is supposed to be chill, not some cliche coffee snob bullshit. I hope Murky doesn't go down that path.
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